Could you substantiate this?

[quote author=“TruthSeeker”]If the biblical zealots get their way, who really gets hurt?  Are not the principles set forth in the bible meant to help us and not hurt anyone?  Please give this serious thought before you respond!

Right off the bat, art and science suffer. Look at Arab culture. During the European Middle Ages, they preserved a lot of the mathematical and scientific knowledge of the Classical period while the Europeans were praying. As it became more and more religious and restrictive, the culture stagnated. European culture only really started becoming world-dominant during the Renassance and Enlightenment periods, neither of which had religous origins or motivations. One was a rediscovery of Classical art (much of it you would consider indecent) and the other was known as the Age of Reason. Most of the principles were Enlightenment were quite contrary to the ‘Divine Right of Kings’ of the Middle Ages. The US Constitution and Declaration of Independance are documents largely created out of Enlightenment ideas and ideals.

This would require research to substantiate. I don’t think we can decide this based on casual observations of history. One of my favorite quotes is “the plural of anecdote is not data”. In other words, just because some countries had “bad morals” when they fell, does not necessarily mean that the morality was in any way related to the fall.

[quote author=“TruthSeeker”]When are freedoms considered taken too far?

I would say “when they hurt others” - which I think is a very Libertarian definition. But I do not think pornography hurts individuals or society enough to ban it. It is something that large numbers of people want to have available. Compare it to tobacco or alcohol - both of which cause much greater concrete harm. Shall we ban them too?

[quote author=“TruthSeeker”]If the biblical zealots get their way, who really gets hurt?  Are not the principles set forth in the bible meant to help us and not hurt anyone?  Please give this serious thought before you respond!

The discussion here has been quite serious - I’ve been really happy since these are all topics than can get people riled up.

Sex education and sexually transmitted disease information would become less available - which mainly hurts young people in my opinion.

[quote author=“tmkt”][quote author=“sina3001”][quote author=“grisjuan”][quote author=“TruthSeeker”]My only problem with their stand on issues is that they want to take certain freedoms to the extreme and legalize pornography.

Isn’t pornography already legal?

If the religious right succeeds in banning “pornography” - who gets to decide what is and is not banned? Art and literature come to mind. I know my objections are the obvious ones, but I still think they are important ones that any person who wants to ban things should address.

That’s what I was going to say, as far as I know, porno is perfectly legal.

Not only is it legal..
it’s fabulous.

Your sick.

Aren’t you married?  :xeno:

[quote author=“OnMyWayUp”][quote author=“tmkt”][quote author=“sina3001”][quote author=“grisjuan”][quote author=“TruthSeeker”]My only problem with their stand on issues is that they want to take certain freedoms to the extreme and legalize pornography.

Isn’t pornography already legal?

If the religious right succeeds in banning “pornography” - who gets to decide what is and is not banned? Art and literature come to mind. I know my objections are the obvious ones, but I still think they are important ones that any person who wants to ban things should address.

That’s what I was going to say, as far as I know, porno is perfectly legal.

Not only is it legal..
it’s fabulous.

Your sick.

Aren’t you married?  :xeno:

Yeah…I’m sick…enjoying the sight of naked women…
lock me up in a hospital…

the human body is a beautiful thing. 

you’re also saying it’s sick because you grew up with your parents saying “don’t be naked… it’s bad”

if you lived in parts of europe, it’s an accepted thing.  There are places with nude beaches.

Yup…North America…is a very uptight place.

[quote author=“tmkt”]
Not only is it legal..
it’s fabulous.

[quote author=“OnMyWayUp”]Your sick.

Aren’t you married?  :xeno:

[quote author=“tmkt”]Yeah…I’m sick…enjoying the sight of naked women…
lock me up in a hospital…

I’m not saying it’s sick to admire a naked girl… but the fact that your married is the sick part.  It is like betraying the fact that you even married her. You didn’t marry her to go and check out other women because she isnt good enough, Does she know you check out porn?
My parents have no problem with me being naked.  I personally was always more modest. That has relevance with tmkt ckecking out porn while being married.

It would be really nice to keep the personal attacks out of this discussion.

The issue is not whether you approve or not, it’s whether it is appropriate to encode one religion’s beliefs into the law of the land. Personally, I do not want to have any religious belief system imposed on me by the government. Where do you stand on the principle behind this discussion?

It makes me think of the American tourists I would see each summer on the beaches in France, where I grew up. They would be gawking and trying to covertly (yet unsuccessfully) take pictures of all the tits, whereas the French did not care at all or see them as something overtly sexual.

That would lead me to believe that considering looking at naked women to be something bad is a direct result of wanting to have them covered up in the first place…

I say, if you notice it’s not good for you, then don’t do it. But that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s not bad for everybody else. Some people seem to enjoy looking at nature’s scenery. And looking at a pretty girl may be part of that and does not have to be construed as something sexual. Would I not be allowed to simply call another woman pretty? What about a topless woman on a French beach? Or is it only “wrong” if an American does it, since he comes from a different moral background?

This is my 200th post! Chris, I’m catching up!

I’m not saying it’s sick to admire a naked girl… but the fact that your married is the sick part.  It is like betraying the fact that you even married her. You didn’t marry her to go and check out other women because she isnt good enough, Does she know you check out porn?
My parents have no problem with me being naked.  I personally was always more modest. That has relevance with tmkt ckecking out porn while being married.

Uh, hello? Of course it’s okay to look at other women. I’m not touching them, am I?

I for myself, I’m 22. Of course I’m not married. But the same things apply in case that I have a girlfriend.

Of course my girlfriend would be upset when I sleep with another girl. That would be cheating, that would be betrayal. It never happened, but she sure would be right to be mad at me.

But just looking at other girls? Why not? Or would I now suddenly have to cover my eyes whenever a naked woman walks by - at the beach, at the pool, in the sauna, in magazines or in television? Well, that would basically mean that I wouldn’t be able to go swimming or into the sauna at all, because you really can’t avoid nakes people there.

She may look at naked men, if she likes to - I don’t care, as long as she just looks and doesn’t touch. And with “don’t touch” I don’t mean any friendly touch, I mean deliberately sexual touches.

In fact I know many girls who don’t have any problem with porn. I even know some few girls who like porn themselves (most others just think it’s stupid, however) and last but not least there are normal everyday couples which even like watching porn together. That’s in their bedroom, that’s their sexual life and we don’t have to care at all.

So, to come back to all your questions:

First, no, I didn’t marry (or date) her to go out and check out others because she isn’t “good enough”, I married (or dated) her because I decided she was the best for me, and I still like to check out others which are not as good as mine, but still nice to look at.

Secondly, it’s certainly not like betraying her. I’m not betraying her with anything. She can fully trust in me and in the fact that I won’t cheat on her and go out to have sex with other women. I’m still noticing that other womens exist but give her the privilege of being the very special one by not having anything to do with all those other women, even if they are more than just good looking. That’s a compliment.

Lastly, yes, if I check out porn, she usually knows that I check out porn. Granted, most guys won’t go to their wife or girlfriend to say “hey, honey, I’m gonna look at porn, okay?” or “wow, I just saw some GOOD porn!” but their female counterpart usually knows that there are times and places where their guy watches porn. And he still likes having sex with her. And I’m not talking about the relationships where everything is centered around sex, and I’m also not talking about the relationships where both watch porn together for whatever reason, I’m talking about your “normal” everyday relationship.

I’ve never been to the USA, but sometimes I really get the impression that, in some states, people there have some problems with sexuality, like it’s something unwanted or something “evil”? Is that really true? And is it true that you can’t even see any girl or woman topless at the beach, the bath, the sauna or wherever? What are you hiding from?

Regards,
Julien

Hey frodoID, i agree with whatever you said, most of it. I dont understand why you cant JUST watch porn. Its just a way of expression i feel. A very explicit one, but then hey thats the way life is. Some people have something more than others and they make use of it to make a living at the cost of providing pleasure to others. Its not like watching porn would get me away from my women because now that i’m seeing it, makes me want MORE. Its just a fantasy world, just like in the movies. Even though PORN is much more realistic than a lot of things shown in movies, most common people do not practise certain things detailed in pornography.

[quote author=“tmkt”][quote author=“OnMyWayUp”][quote author=“tmkt”][quote author=“sina3001”][quote author=“grisjuan”][quote author=“TruthSeeker”]My only problem with their stand on issues is that they want to take certain freedoms to the extreme and legalize pornography.

Isn’t pornography already legal?

If the religious right succeeds in banning “pornography” - who gets to decide what is and is not banned? Art and literature come to mind. I know my objections are the obvious ones, but I still think they are important ones that any person who wants to ban things should address.

That’s what I was going to say, as far as I know, porno is perfectly legal.

Not only is it legal..
it’s fabulous.

Your sick.

Aren’t you married?  :xeno:

Yeah…I’m sick…enjoying the sight of naked women…
lock me up in a hospital…

Look…you have to remember, different strokes for different folks.  Just respect each other’s opinions on things.  There’s really no reason to call people names.

~nox

frodo, i would imagine by making nudity a social taboo in North america could possibly be a marketing strategy. 

it’s kinda like drinking alcohol.  you drink more of it under the age limit because some big honcho says you can’t drink it.  But once you pass the age limit, there’s no excitement in drinking as much. 

or it’s possible that we’re so self-conscious about our appearances that we just can’t go around naked

[quote author=“FrodoID”]Uh, hello? Of course it’s okay to look at other women. I’m not touching them, am I?

Not to jump in here but this reminded me of a quote from a buddy of mine (involving looking at other women when your married)...

“It’s like a Picaso, you can look just don’t touch.”

Personally I agree with this but that’s me.

Two such quotes come to mind:
“I’m on a diet but I can still read the menu.”
“I’m married—not dead!”